it's all in the subtext ([info]sub_textual) wrote,
@ 2009-04-26 23:13:00
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Entry tags:analysis, feminism, gender, gender!fail, meta, naruto

Gender, Feminism, and Naruto: A Closer Look
There has been quite a lot of discussion in the Naruto metacritical blogosphere as of late regarding gender and representation of women.

It all started when [info]autoschismatic put up this discussion in which she decries Kishimoto's marginalization of women. Her main argument is that "The fact that women are put in medic roles- and medics are not valued- is problematic. You know what else is problematic? The idea that men have one kind of strength and women have another," and calls for fans to be aware of this issue and treat it as such. The conversation began in order to raise awareness of oppressive gender themes in Naruto, and to also consider whether or not certain characters are or are not anti-feminist.

And naturally, like all conversations about gender, sexuality, and feminism, she was promptly told that her issues with the canon is not relevant by [info]hitokiridirk, because "It's a shounen manga. Shounen manga are pretty much rife with female-oriented stereotypes, because they're often written by men, for boys," a very problematic line of thought that [info]nekokatsu, [info]carnifex_atrox, and [info]geekgirl62 immediately agree with. [info]carnifex_atrox even argues that "It's not a political thing, or a feminist issue, it's just that shonen manga is marketed for boys, and boys don't really want heroines in their manga, they want the lads kickin' ass," while [info]geekgirl62 tacks on, "I don't want my Kohoha men to be wimpified into a bunch of girlymen in order to make the women look tougher."

Now, hold on a second here. Just because shounen manga is "rife with female-oriented stereotypes," does that mean that such stereotypes are completely acceptable and we therefore should sit our asses down and buy into them? Should we justify the existence of oppressive themes or treatments of characters in texts as nothing that should be seriously considered just because they are stereotypes, and are "written by men for boys"? Or should we consider that these stereotypes exist and question why it is that they do? More problematically, why is it that boys "don't really want heroines in their manga"? Is it because they are boys, or is it because Japanese society is inherently patriarchal and androcentric? Are these things not subjects we should approach just because the writer happens to be male and the target audience is as well?

Since when was any form of literature exclusive to one gender? To say that one form of literature, even if it is written with a target audience and readership in mind, is exclusive only to that audience is absolutely ridiculous; literature is consumed by multiple audiences and multiple cultures, and each audience will have a different understanding and perspective of it. To say that we should not consider it because it is written by a man for an audience of boys is no different than saying that because writers such as Jonathan Swift and Mark Twain were white and writing for a privileged white and predominately male audience, that we, as readers, should not consider the racism in Gulliver's Travels and The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. It is no different than saying that because Thomas Hardy was white and male, his stereotypical construction of Tess in Tess of the d'Urbervilles as the epitome of the Victorian Woman whose only worth is her sexual purity is not problematic and something that female critics should consider because they are not the audience he is writing for because they are female.

That anyone -- especially a male commenter -- would argue that female stereotyping in Naruto is not something we should consider just because the writer is male and writing for an audience of boys is a feminist issue. The problematic social acceptance of female stereotypecasting is a feminist issue. And am I the only person who finds it incredibly problematic that a woman even buys into these ridiculous stereotypes and equates being female with being weak, and therefore "wimpy," assuming that the only way women can "look tougher" is by emasculating men and making them less "masculine" and more "feminine"?

How the fuck are these not feminist issues? These are all feminist issues, and anyone who says otherwise clearly knows nothing about feminism or its issues.

Let's talk about feminism a little. Feminism is not about burning bras. We are not trying to obliterate men. We are not all butch and wear Birkenstocks and think lipstick was created by the devil. We do not all think men are the worse gender and women are the elevated sex. Feminism is highly misunderstood by just about everyone who doesn't identify as feminist, and women frequently think it is wrong to associate with feminism because of the negative rap it has.

Jessica Valenti writes in Full Frontal Feminism:

For some reason, feminism is seen as super anti: anti-men, anti-sex, anti-sexism, anti-everything. And while some of those antis aren't bad things, it's not exactly exciting to get involved in something that's seen as so consistently negative... You can be a feminist without making it your life's works... It doesn't matter what you're doing, so long as you're doing something. Even if it's as simple as speaking up when someone tells a nasty-ass sexist joke. (2, 17; emphasis mine)
Feminists who happen to enjoy Naruto may ask themselves if their enjoyment of this canon is somehow anti-feminist because of the problematic portrayals of gender in it. Some might want to question those depictions -- there is no reason why anyone should be told that their concern with the text is not legitimate and to shut the fuck up and sit down, you stupid woman, this isn't about you, but about MEN MEN MEN, don't you get it?! (Yeah, clearly we don't get it, so no, we are not going to sit down and shut up, thank you very much. That you would even tell us to do so is precisely why we do not. And this also is a feminist issue.)

Now that I have your attention and have thoroughly bashed in the fact that these are, indeed, feminist issues worth consideration, and that anyone who thinks otherwise clearly is not considering the implications of their arguments, let's get on with the actual analysis.

Gender, Sexuality, and the Body: How Gender is Constructed

Before we can begin a careful reading of gender and its performance in Naruto, it is important to understand what gender is and how it is constructed. If you are not interested in truly understanding how gender functions, I highly suggest you stop reading now, as the next passage is strictly going to be dealing with gender theory and discuss what is gender, and how it is performed and constructed.

Many like to argue that gender is something you are born with: you are either male or female at birth, and what determines your gender are the genitals you come into the world with and the chromosomes in your blood. There are only two types of gender, and you can only be one or the other; men have one set of very specific characteristics that they must be, while women have another. There is absolutely no contestation about it, or so people think.

It is precisely because people buy into this myth that it is such a problematic site of conflict.

The dominant discourse in society generally goes like this: women are weaker than men, more emotional, irrational, incapable of logic, do not have self-control, cry easily, are obsessed with love and romance, are vain, belong in the house and/or the kitchen, are genetically predisposed to being nurturing and caring, are incredibly empathetic, and are, in every way, shape, and form, second to men. Women must act a certain way (i.e. a more "feminine" way), must look and dress a certain way, must be a certain way, and if they do not act in the ways women are supposed to act, they are somehow not feminine, less womanly, and more masculine. Women in positions of power tend to be described as "men in women's bodies" or, like Hilary Clinton, are "nutcrackers," and are constantly criticized for their lack of "womanly" characteristics; but should a woman in a position of power ever show emotion, she is immediately criticized for the presence of "womanly" characteristics.

There is this incredible amount of attention society spends on judging a woman's worth based on the way she looks, the way she dresses, how she carries herself, and just about everything that has to do with her sexuality and its rendering; more problematically, women are constantly reduced to the sum of their body parts, breasts, in particular. The larger a woman's breasts, the more feminine she is! The smaller her breasts, the less of a woman she is.

Okay, what the fuck, really. The difference between an A cup and a D cup does not make you less of a woman, but that's not the point of this argument. The reason why I bring up the body in such a way is because I would like to draw to attention the discursive performance of the body.

Michel Foucault, in 1978, wrote one of the most seminal texts in postmodern critical theory, The History of Sexuality, in which he explores how discourse has the ability to codify certain power relations, ideas of reality, and most problematically: "truth" and "authenticity." Foucault's approach was namely one that focuses on how discourse produces an "authentic sexuality" as one that must be heterosexual and strictly for the purpose of conjugal reproduction; sexuality that occurs outside of this model is considered "deviant" and abnormal. In laymen's terms, Foucault illustrates how discourse can create a socially accepted norm or a social truth. He also proves in his demonstration how this "authentic sexuality" and the discourse surrounding it began with the desperation to oppress sexuality and how it is allowed to be spoken about and performed. Ultimately, the transformation of sex into discourse created an etiological obsession to "fix" anything that didn't fall within the realm of "authentic sexuality" (meaning, any kind of sexual practice that was not heterosexual and for the purpose of reproduction, including masturbation) was considered a sickness that medical science attempted to fix, resulting in a whole lot of very fucked up "medical practices" and even more problematic psychoanalytic bullshit Freud is known so well for.

Foucault's demonstration that discourse can construct some kind of authorized sexuality brings me to Judith Butler's discussion of gender, and how discourse can somehow create an authorized notion of gender.

In 1990, Butler released Gender Trouble. Drawing from influences such as Simone de Beauvoir, who argues, "One is not born a woman; one becomes a woman" in The Second Sex, a text written about fifty years before Butler's exploration of gender, Butler proves that gender is actually not something you are born with, but a social performance. Because society believes that there must be two distinct genders, you must be either male or female, and these ideas of what an "authorized male" and "authorized female" identity are, are so deeply inscribed into society that at birth we are forced to take on the role that our body assigns us. From the moment we are born, we are indoctrinated in this social religion that is gender. Boys are dressed in blue and given toy trucks; girls are dressed in pinks and play with Barbie dolls. Boys must not cry. Girls should bake cakes. So on and so forth.

But as we all well know, gender is not concrete and there is an incredible amount of fluidity between genders. There are men who are weaker than women, more emotional, irrational, incapable of logic, and generally act more like women than women but identify as male; there are women who are born and are told they are men but grow up and realize they never were male to begin with and were always female.

Transgenderism is to Butler's issue with "authentic gender" what homosexuality and any other kind of sexuality is to Foucault's problem with "authorized sexuality." Many criticize transgenderism as something that is abnormal and deviant because transgendered individuals reject the gender they were assigned at birth and perform another gender. There is an incredible amount of resentment, anger, and disgust at transgendered individuals because they seem to be "confused" about their "biological sex." What they don't seem to realize is that gender is a performance, it is more about the way we act and how we act than it is about anything else. Moreover, it is also about how one views us based on how our bodies look. That someone can decide something is more "masculine" or "feminine" depending on someone's mode of dress or the shape of their bodies means that the body itself performs in a discursive way; people read bodies the way they read books -- they derive from bodies certain notions, ideas, and or misconceptions about an individual.

For example: A woman who is incredibly feminine and dresses in a sexy way can immediately and often is categorized as airheaded, vain, and a slut. (I should make a point right now that I happen to be incredibly feminine and dress in a sexy way quite often, but I am not airheaded, vain, or a slut.) A woman who refuses to dress in a feminine way is somehow less of a woman and probably has many "masculine tendencies." A woman like Susan Boyle walks out on stage and immediately the entire audience assumes that because she is not young, beautiful, and sexy, she can't possibly have any talent.

The body speaks. The body performs. The female body, in particular, is the most sexualized image in media in the world. In America, our media is hypersexualized and creates these incredibly sexual images of women that are so unrealistic insomuch that they are so ridiculously beautiful and sexual and thin; as a result, these images are very damaging to women because they create some kind of not-truth that women should look a certain way, dress a certain way, and that their bodies should be a certain shape. And anything that does that fit that model is considered ugly and fat and less womanly.

These images are ones that very young girls and boys see, and these are the types of "truths" about "women" that they understand as they grow up; these images are incredibly damaging and problematic, and there is no place in the world that objectifies and sexualizes women more in media and entertainment than Japan.

Women and Japan: A Cultural Construction

Japan is one of the most patriarchal, anti-feminist, misogynistic societies in developed, industrialized nations.

In Japan, women do not have more of a role than to act as the housewife, the mother, the school teacher, or the office lady who serves tea and other beverages to men, or the pretty young girl who gets all dolled up and laughs at every single joke a man ever makes, and then makes sure to always keep his glass filled during a party. Women are generally considered to be incapable of doing anything without the help of a man unless it's something that's related to cooking, and generally they are treated as second-class citizens.

Men are hired with the understanding of opportunities for management-track promotion; the majority of women are hired to serve tea, file documents, serve tea, make copies for the men, serve tea, answer the phones, serve tea, and wash up the dishes from serving tea. This is Japanese culture at its finest; sexual oppression in the workforce is rampant.

When I was doing business with Japan, just about every single man I met were shocked to discover that I was the Chief Operations Officer of a company with offices in Los Angeles, New York, and Singapore. I worked in entertainment in Japan, and it was pretty common to go to parties and socialize; I used these parties as places where I would be able to do some networking. Imagine my surprise, as a feminist, when I walked into a party and discovered the amount of women there who were pretty much allowing themselves to be treated as sexual playtoys for the men, simply because they are women and that is their role. Imagine more, a Japanese man's surprise, when he attempted to treat me the way all the other Japanese women allow themselves to be treated, only for me to tell him no, not interested. Imagine, also, when I was at a particular club in Shibuya, and a Japanese man refused to stop trying to touch me despite being told rather firmly to not do that, because he believed he had the right and the privilege and was entitled to my body because I am female and he is male, and as a Japanese male, he should be allowed to do with me what he wants. (Imagine his shock when I got all up in his face and raised a fist and screamed that if he touched me one more time, I would fuck him up, motherfucker.)

Imagine, also, the surprise of when a group of men started talking about how women were naturally unintelligent, and I raised my voice and told them to kindly shut the fuck up, seeing as I, too, was a business owner, and my business was just as successful as theirs, while the Japanese girl next to me giggled and agreed at just how dumb all women are, and oh my god, how can we possibly have any kind of intelligence? She also mentioned that her number one most important endeavor was to find a boyfriend who can "take care of her" because that's what you're supposed to do as a Japanese woman: find a nice man to take care of you, because, obviously women can't take care of themselves.

Surprisingly, there is a sickening amount of young Japanese women who believe that very fact, and much of their incredibly problematic belief system is indoctrinated via the images in the media that they see of how Japanese women are supposed to act, behave, and what their bodies are supposed to look like as well. These images are everywhere -- in advertisments, on television, in movies, in manga, in anime, everywhere.

And because Japan is culturally all about collectivism and harmony, it's not surprising that there is very little feminist activism that occurs in Japan. I could go into a discussion of great lengths about this very fact, about why it is that feminist activism is nearly nonexistent in Asia, and how that relates to social and cultural issues, but this is ultimately a discussion about gender and Naruto, and I am only bringing up Japan's construction of women here because not only is it relevant to my discussion of how Kishimoto constructs his women in Naruto, but it is also relevant to [info]hitokiridirk's sexist comments.

The reason why sexism and Kishimoto's treatment of gender in Naruto is a legitimate feminist concern is because these images create and construct authorized notions of gender and are part of the body of discourses that indoctrinate their audiences. To talk about these issues is not pretentious or ethnocentric, but a serious consideration of feminist issues in a work of literature.

Gender, Sexism, and Oppression in Naruto

Kishimoto's construction of gender is incredibly sexist and stereotypical, and one of the biggest things about Naruto that I take issue with. As a feminist, in the beginning, it was very hard for me to reconcile my feminism with my interest in the canon, especially pre-timeskip.

"Girls are only interested in love at that age," Kakashi remarks with a sigh when he first meets Sakura and all she cares about is Sasuke, defines herself by her love for Sasuke, and essentially has no identity outside of her obsession with Sasuke. Her entire characterization is based on her romantic interest in Sasuke and she virtually has no identity whatsoever to call her own except for the closeted "Inner Sakura" whom we only ever see once in a blue moon. Ino's characterization is also just as problematic; she is Sakura's rival and is also just as obsessed with Sasuke as Sakura. Even more troubling is how Sakura seems to cry at just about everything and doesn't seem to be able to fight at all, instead, relying on her male teammates to take care of the big bad guys while she freaks out and really has no worth.

The fact that this is how Kishimoto chooses to introduce his main female character is certainly worth consideration: we are given the most stereotypical female possible. She's utterly useless in every way, slows the team down, does nothing but cry, and pretty much is the very definition of "female archetype." Her identity is also contingent on Sasuke's existence; without Sasuke for her to be obsessed with, Sakura would not have even existed. Sasuke is the means by which she is constituted, and by which she is defined. Meaning, the male character is what valorizes and constitutes the female. The male is glorified, and the female does all the glorification; in fact, it is her role, it is the reason why she exists. She exists to tell the male how incredible he is, and to be obsessed with him. This kind of discourse is exactly the kind of problematic fuckery that informs how men treat women in Japan, and why women believe they have a certain role in society and do not even attempt to contest that role -- because it is not just a role, it is the "truth" about women, and because it is the socially accepted "truth" it can't possibly be ever contested. Men are better than women, is the message. Worship us. (Yeah, no thanks.)

In Naruto, the female is weak and stupid, the male is a genius. In fact, there are no female geniuses in Naruto. Kakashi, Itachi, Neji, and Sasuke are all geniuses, but female geniuses do not exist! There is not a single female kunoichi that is idolized the way men are! (Except for Tsunade, but do you see any male ninjas idolizing her?) Yes, this is because it's a shounen manga, but the lack of there being a balanced distribution between the genders creates a power hierarchy wherein the male is the dominant gender that outshines and outdoes the female gender in every way, shape and form except in the area of nurturing and medical ninjutsu.

[info]autoschismatic argues, "The fact that women are put in medic roles- and medics are not valued- is problematic. You know what else is problematic? The idea that men have one kind of strength and women have another." That women are associated with the caregiver/nurturing role and the men are the ones kicking ass is something we should definitely consider. Why is it that the one ass kicking male who is also a medic ninja is cast as a villain? Kabuto is male, he is also a badass medic ninja who gives Tsunade a hell of a time -- but he's evil. It'd be too easy to argue that because he is a male who takes on the "girly" role of caregiving and nurturing that is meant for women only, Kabuto is thereby punished and turned into a villain. He must be ostracized for complicating the gender binary we see in Naruto where the males demonstrate brute strength and crazy skills, and the girls are all medical ninjas or the caregiver type, with the exception of Ten Ten.

Now, if we consider the fact that Ten Ten is the least "feminine" of all the female ninja in Naruto, it might make sense as to why she is not a medic ninja or a caregiver type like all the other girls. Kishimoto draws her in a way that is not particularly "girly" in comparison with Ino, Sakura, or Hinata (who is not a medic ninja, but a caregiver; remember how she gives Naruto and Kiba balm during the Chuunin Exam to heal faster?), and somehow this lack of femininity makes it so she has no caregiving skills, and therefore, cannot be a medic ninja or a caregiver. Which means that Kishimoto is implying that her body and the shape of it is what makes it impossible for her to be a medic or caregiver because she is not enough of a woman to fill that role. Which means that there is some sort of preconceived idea of what a woman is, and what you must look like to be a "real woman."

Many people have argued that Tsunade is badass because she's a "real woman," has more strength than anyone on earth, and she is a hardcore medic kunoichi. In case people forgot, Tsunade also requires liberation from her fear of blood and a PTSD trigger that immediately reduces her to tears and incapacitates her ability to fight, and her source of liberation is a little boy. In fact, we are reminded just how emotionally weak she is because she loses her lover and her brother, and as a result leaves Konoha and goes into a life of gambling which she sucks at in every way, shape, and form. Her emotional weakness is punished by her affairs with gambling and drinking, and while she is one of the three Sannin, she is also reduced to less than Naruto because she is a woman and is so emotional that she can't even fight. That she has to rely on a male (a child, no less) to save her from her fear is yet another illustration of how women are, in some way, weaker than men. Even though Tsunade can punch a hole through an entire forest, she is emotionally weaker than Naruto because she is a woman.

Seriously, now.

Okay, so Kishimoto made her the Hokage, who is the strongest ninja in the village. But when Pein attacks the village, is Tsunade out there kicking ass the way Yondaime and Sandaime did when Kyuubi and Orochimaru attacked the village? No, she's sending her slugs out to go protect the villagers while everyone and their mom WAITS FOR NARUTO TO COME AND SAVE THE DAY. Um... hello? What happened to Tsunade being the strongest ninja in the village? Why isn't she doing anything? What exactly is her fucking role anyway? This is what I would like to know, really. Aside from her bitching about having to sign a bunch of paperwork, we never once see how she really is the strongest ninja, nor does she act like a Hokage should act, the way the previous Hokages have acted. Why? Oh, let me guess. She's a woman and her tits get in the way. Speaking of tits, it's even more problematic that Tsunade has this obsession with her image to the degree that she casts a genjutsu to always look like she's in her 20s when she's actually in her 50s. That kind of an image draws to light the kind of image-obsession Japanese women always must have: they must always look young and beautiful, but who are they making themselves look beautiful for?

The treatment of the female body in Naruto is something that I have always had trouble with. The Hokage's breasts are nearly falling out of her shirt. Sakura's shorts are incredibly short. Hinata's bosom is very ample and we had a wonderful close-up shot of it in Chapter 442. Anko seems to only wear fishnet underneath a jacket and nothing else. Kurenai is just fancy, all around. Shizune seems to be the only self-respecting kunoichi who wears a Konoha uniform. All the other women either wear short shorts or have big breasts for us to focus on. Who exactly are they dressing up for? They're ninja. Is it really functional for ninja to be wearing dresses and shirts where breasts fall out and shorts where their asses hang out? The answer, of course, is no. But these characters are being drawn for a male audience, and therefore, it is perfectly fine to objectify and sexualize them because it satisfies the male reader. Or so Kishimoto would like us to believe.

Japanese women and characters in Japanese anime self-objectify because it is what is considered socially acceptable; but just because something is socially acceptable does not mean, we, as an audience, should simply say "because it is socially accepted in Japan, then we shouldn't contest it when we are considering it in America." In Saudi Arabia, fathers marry off 8-year-old girls to adult suitors; is this something we shouldn't contest just because we have no right to impose on Saudi Arabia our American privilege and sense of morality? Do we have no right to consider it? It is socially accepted there, so why are we being racist? Well, let's see, maybe it's because it deals with the oppression of women and the fact that we are talking about women as a whole. And anywhere where there is oppression of women whether it be something as clearly obvious as forcing an 8-year-old into a marriage with a grown man, where she will be repeatedly raped and abused, or oppression by means of sexual objectification, oppression is still oppression regardless of what form it comes in.

Some oppressions are definitely worse than others -- that goes without saying; but it is not illegitimate for us to consider how oppressive characterization is what informs the construction of female characters in Naruto, and the implications such characterizations carry. While [info]autoschismatic argue that women are marginalized in Naruto, I do not believe so much that the issue is their marginalization, but their oppression, objectification, and sexualization.

While some seem to believe that Konan's lack of emotion and Nagato's overabundance of emotion is a subversion of the gender hierarchy, they are forgetting who really is the one in power -- Nagato is the one calling the shots, while Konan follows his orders; Konan's role is to nurture and protect him, but ultimately she is his "angel," while he is her god. The relationship we have is one where a female angel worships a male god; she belongs to him and is essentially his possession and tool by which he will achieve his goals of conquering the earth. The gender hierarchy is not subverted, nor is it collapsed. The power is still in male hands and the woman still answers to it, is enslaved by it, and belongs to him.

There is no empowerment of women in Naruto, but a constant oppression of them. And unfortunately, we most likely will never see a liberation of women or a change of how Kishimoto portrays them because the cultural discourse that shapes a Japanese understanding of gendered bodies and gender identity is so pervasive that Kishimoto is not going to wake up one day and suddenly realize how his portrayal of women is oppressive and anti-feminist.

But while we understand it is oppressive and anti-feminist, as feminists I do not believe we should feel guilty for our enjoyment of Naruto despite that fact. Just like we should not feel guilty when we read the likes of Thomas Hardy, Mark Twain, or Jonathan Swift -- or any other author who might have sexism, classism, and racism in their texts. When confronting any work of literature, what matters most isn't what the author intends, but what the reader understands; and if we, as readers, vocalize, critique, and raise awareness of the issues we have in a text, then we, as feminists, are doing our due dilligence as feminists in starting the dialogues and conversations that will help to create a more complicated and sensitive understanding of Naruto and awareness of the sexism in it.




Comment Policy: If I see any misogynistic trolling, I will delete the comments and will ban users from my journal without warning. This is your one and only notice. Also: stay on topic, guys.

Note: I am currently working on an essay in response to comments regarding my comments on Sakura, Tsunade, and Konan. I will also be offering a better explanation about what I mean when I say "authorial intent does not matter." This will most likely be posted tomorrow, at the earliest. (4/29, 11PM EST)


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[info]hieronymousb
2009-04-27 03:40 am UTC (link)
I agree with a lot of what you're saying here. Naruto is a series replete with sexist writing, from a culture replete with sexist ideas.

However, the one place where I disagree with you somewhat is on the sexualization of women. Aside from the obvious... issue of Tsunade's breasts, I honestly do not feel that the Naruto series, by and large, is terribly guilty of over-sexualizing its females. Ten Ten's outfit is fairly modest, Hinata's ample bosom is mostly hidden by her [actually fairly unflattering] jacket, and even the girls who seem to have revealing clothes, like Temari or Kurenai? Well, they still look like normal outfits to me. Frankly, Kurenai's general outfit looks not so unlike one I wear myself during the summer. Also, most of the women have reasonably normal bodies, to my mind, barring some oversized breasts.

I guess what I'm saying is? I'm not saying the ladies are never, ever over-sexualized physically, but compared to almost every other anime I can think of offhandedly (panty shots, ridiculous amounts of T&A) and even some mainstream entertainment (y halo thar, American comics), the girls in Naruto are downright tame.

There's nothing like, well, this, in Naruto-verse.

And actually, Kishimoto is routinely derided by his older male fanbase for supposedly never making the girls pretty enough, by which I assume people mean... not close enough to something like the above, as Kubo Tite is often referenced as the go-to guy for "hot ladies". Sakura's outfit/skirt is somewhat revealing, to be sure, but nothing beyond what I could imagine a real girl wearing out in her daily life.

As to Konan and Nagato, it's not so much that canon does subvert the dynamic, in my mind (based on what we've seen), it's that all the tools for subversion are readily there: Konan chooses to follow Nagato. She isn't forced. He's confined to a wheelchair-like device, and she, being the only person we know so far who is aware of this disability? Could potentially do away with him. Dude's stuck in a chair. Not too hard to get at his weak points. Konan would never do that, out of her choice. There is an implied deep trust between the two of them; he isn't forcing her to do anything. Where I do agree with you is that Kishimoto does not portray this or emphasize this in such a way that it's immediate. We see Nagato telling Konan to do or not do this or that -- the point that she doesn't have to is not expressed, nor is the point that, as childhood bffs, they likely have a strong reciprocity of deep-set trust. She does, after all, feel completely okay in talking back to the guy.

But that's all very between-the-lines, implied, and you do actually have to make the move to read that, because the canon certainly doesn't spell it out or particularly focus on it.

I agree with more or less everything else, and you make some good points about Tsunade. Also --


But while we understand it is oppressive and anti-feminist, as feminists I do not believe we should feel guilty for our enjoyment of Naruto despite that fact. Just like we should not feel guilty when we read the likes of Thomas Hardy, Mark Twain, or Jonathan Swift -- or any other author who might have sexism, classism, and racism in their texts. When confronting any work of literature, what matters most isn't what the author intends, but what the reader understands; and if we, as readers, vocalize, critique, and raise awareness of the issues we have in a text, then we, as feminists, are doing our due dilligence as feminists in starting the dialogues and conversations that will help to create a more complicated and sensitive understanding of Naruto and awareness of the sexism in it.


-- very seconded. Being aware of a the ways in which a series is sexist and anti-feminist does not mean that we, as fans, cannot enjoy the series, nor "reclaim" and revise the material in a fannish space. And of course, I think discussions like this are of paramount importance.

Edited at 2009-04-27 03:41 am UTC

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[info]sub_textual
2009-04-27 04:11 am UTC (link)
Thanks for your comment. In terms of the sexualization of women, I'll have to get back to you on that as that's another long comment and at the moment, I'm kind of tired of writing super long comments. xD; I just spent the past six hours writing this thing, so... This will be brief.

While you can argue that there is some subversion, ultimately, the gender hierarchy is not subverted unless it is destroyed and deconstructed. What I mean by deconstruction is not taking apart pieces, but the Derridian understanding of deconstructing signifiers and ultimately collapsing it entirely. Deconstruction of gender isn't easy though, it usually requires androgynous characters or ones who are hermaphroditic aor transgendered.

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(no subject) - [info]jaquiel, 2009-04-27 05:10 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]senior_witch, 2009-04-27 08:20 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]centimetre, 2009-04-27 12:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]molten_ghost, 2009-04-27 07:11 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]friedariena
2009-04-27 03:43 am UTC (link)
This is an absolutely wonderful entry. Thought provoking, very much grounded in academic truths and knowledge; kick-ass, if I may.

Another thing that came to mind while I was reading is how the majority of the yaoi/shounen-ai/whatever you want to call it community seems to actively bash or belittle the characters. I'll stick to Naruto here, since that's the fandom that I'm mostly active in. And unless I'm wrong, that section of fandom is primarily composed of women, am I right? We're basically shooting ourselves in the foot. :/

Naruto was spawned from and influenced byJapan's male-centric culture, but I'm amazed that American women are so quick to push these female characters down even further.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sub_textual
2009-04-27 04:13 am UTC (link)
Thank you for commenting, I'm glad that you enjoyed this.

There's a possibility that the majority of yaoi writers belittle female characters mostly because of the way the female characters are portrayed -- but that's really my take on it. I actually haven't seen any bashing or belittlement, but maybe I'm not looking in the right places.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-29 07:36 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]candika, 2009-04-29 11:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]anat_astarte, 2009-04-30 03:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]candika, 2009-04-30 06:32 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]anat_astarte, 2009-05-01 03:12 am UTC (Expand)

(Anonymous)
2009-04-27 03:49 am UTC (link)
Here's a thought. If you really want to end the oppression of women, step away from the computer and go and volunteer at a women's shelter. Lobby for equality through legislation. Do anything but spend your time posting feminist "discourse" (and I use the word lightly) on a livejournal community dedicated to a light-hearted kid's manga. Seriously. Your priorities are wacked.

It's sad to see what so-called feminists are wasting their time on these days. You'll notice that people very rarely post anti-homophobic, anti-racist and anti-ablist analysis of friggin' NARUTO. That's because activists in these communities have bigger fish to fry and realize that.

Posting this sort of masturbatory garbage only serves to discredit us.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]sub_textual
2009-04-27 03:56 am UTC (link)
Feminist bloggers such as the crew over at Feministing.com, Feministe.us, and so many other places in the feminist blogosphere have done so much for the world of feminism because it is about raising awareness -- and anywhere where you can raise awareness about feminism, sexuality, sexism, gender, where there are sites of oppression, is feminist work.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "so-called feminists." You talk about it like we don't exist. Um, we exist. Hi, this is a feminist, talking right back at you. I am a legitimate feminist.

There are many different kinds of feminisms, and different forms of ways in which feminism is carried out and approached -- not all feminists lobby congress; not all feminists do work by volunteering at shelters; a huge part of feminism is the dialogue, the discourse, the awareness. And to delegitimize what I have done here simply because it is a "light-hearted kid's manga" is, quite frankly, not acceptable.

Wherever there is a space where oppression occurs, and wherever there are discussions about that oppression, I am going to participate because that is my own personal feminism, which is more about awareness raising than it is about hitting the pavement.

There is no such thing as one collective feminism or one way of being a feminist. And if I want to write about gender oppression and how it relates to Naruto, I will do that, and you, and no one else, has the right to tell me I shouldn't or to try and silence me.

Also just a reminder, since you clearly did not read carefully enough:

Jessica Valenti writes, "You can be a feminist without making it your life's works... It doesn't matter what you're doing, so long as you're doing something. Even if it's as simple as speaking up when someone tells a nasty-ass sexist joke."

Edited at 2009-04-27 04:05 am UTC

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-27 04:19 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]anat_astarte, 2009-04-27 04:28 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]candika, 2009-04-28 08:45 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-04-29 01:42 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-29 08:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]candika, 2009-04-29 10:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-29 11:15 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-29 11:34 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]candika, 2009-04-30 04:22 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]candika, 2009-04-30 04:21 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]autoschismatic, 2009-05-01 05:46 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]candika, 2009-05-01 06:43 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-27 04:04 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-04-29 01:31 pm UTC (Expand)
Part 1 - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-29 07:48 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Part 1 - [info]candika, 2009-04-29 11:30 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Part 1 - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-29 11:35 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Part 1 - [info]anat_astarte, 2009-04-30 04:04 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Part 1 - [info]candika, 2009-04-30 04:25 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Part 1 - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-30 04:35 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Part 1 - (Anonymous), 2009-05-01 03:51 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Part 1 - [info]candika, 2009-05-01 06:16 am UTC (Expand)
You, my dear Anon, are so very fucking fail! <3 - [info]sub_textual, 2009-05-01 06:19 am UTC (Expand)
And I have absolutely NO respect for you anymore! - [info]sub_textual, 2009-05-01 06:19 am UTC (Expand)
Re: And I have absolutely NO respect for you anymore! - [info]candika, 2009-05-01 06:55 am UTC (Expand)
Re: And I have absolutely NO respect for you anymore! - [info]sub_textual, 2009-05-01 07:00 am UTC (Expand)
Re: And I have absolutely NO respect for you anymore! - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-05-01 07:43 pm UTC (Expand)
Part 2 - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-29 07:52 pm UTC (Expand)
Part 3 - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-29 07:52 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Part 3 - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-29 08:56 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]acediance, 2009-04-29 08:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]autoschismatic, 2009-04-29 08:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-29 09:04 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-29 09:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-29 09:51 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-29 10:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]candika, 2009-04-30 04:30 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]candika, 2009-04-30 04:27 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]acediance, 2009-04-30 01:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-29 08:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]autoschismatic, 2009-04-29 08:47 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-29 09:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]autoschismatic, 2009-04-29 09:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-29 10:56 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-29 09:25 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-29 09:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]autoschismatic, 2009-04-29 09:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-05-01 04:56 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-05-01 05:06 am UTC (Expand)
This is what a real flame looks like. Clearly Anon has not been on the Internetz long enough to know - [info]sub_textual, 2009-05-01 05:09 am UTC (Expand)
Re: This is what a real flame looks like. Clearly Anon has not been on the Internetz long enough to - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-05-01 05:17 am UTC (Expand)
Re: This is what a real flame looks like. Clearly Anon has not been on the Internetz long enough to - [info]sub_textual, 2009-05-01 05:23 am UTC (Expand)
Re: This is what a real flame looks like. Clearly Anon has not been on the Internetz long enough to - [info]acediance, 2009-05-02 01:23 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hoshika, 2009-05-01 05:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]autoschismatic, 2009-05-01 05:28 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-05-01 05:40 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]autoschismatic, 2009-05-01 05:51 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-05-01 05:54 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]candika, 2009-05-01 06:24 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-05-01 06:30 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]candika, 2009-05-01 07:07 am UTC (Expand)
... - [info]sub_textual, 2009-05-01 07:07 am UTC (Expand)
And now for an actual serious comment, via Feministing - [info]sub_textual, 2009-05-01 05:40 am UTC (Expand)
Re: And now for an actual serious comment, via Feministing - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-05-01 05:46 am UTC (Expand)
Re: And now for an actual serious comment, via Feministing - [info]sub_textual, 2009-05-01 05:55 am UTC (Expand)
Re: And now for an actual serious comment, via Feministing - [info]candika, 2009-05-01 06:25 am UTC (Expand)
(completely tangential pet peeve...) - (Anonymous), 2009-05-01 05:46 am UTC (Expand)
Re: (completely tangential pet peeve...) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-05-01 06:10 am UTC (Expand)
Re: (completely tangential pet peeve...) - [info]candika, 2009-05-01 06:27 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]acediance, 2009-05-02 12:52 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]candika, 2009-04-29 11:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]autoschismatic, 2009-04-29 06:13 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-29 06:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-29 11:37 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-05-01 04:13 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]autoschismatic, 2009-05-01 05:32 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]autoschismatic, 2009-04-27 04:26 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sowell, 2009-04-27 11:54 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]candika, 2009-04-29 11:11 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]acediance, 2009-04-27 12:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-29 08:15 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]acediance, 2009-04-29 10:25 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-29 10:38 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]acediance, 2009-04-29 11:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]autoschismatic, 2009-04-29 10:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]acediance, 2009-04-29 11:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-29 11:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]acediance, 2009-04-30 12:50 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]candika, 2009-04-29 11:56 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]premium_shaday, 2009-04-27 05:49 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]candika, 2009-04-28 08:31 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-04-29 12:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]candika, 2009-04-29 11:25 pm UTC (Expand)
Part One - [info]nimblnymph, 2009-04-30 03:04 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Part One - [info]candika, 2009-04-30 04:02 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Part One - [info]nimblnymph, 2009-04-30 04:22 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Part One - [info]candika, 2009-04-30 07:20 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Part One - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-30 07:45 am UTC (Expand)
Part Two - [info]nimblnymph, 2009-04-30 03:05 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Part Two - [info]candika, 2009-04-30 04:15 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Part Two - [info]nimblnymph, 2009-04-30 04:30 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Part Two - [info]anat_astarte, 2009-04-30 04:58 am UTC (Expand)

[info]o0famous_amos0o
2009-04-27 03:58 am UTC (link)
Two words for you: Fucking. Epic. A++++ thread, definitely. I really appreciate the thorough intellectual examination you've given it. I have to say that I wouldn't personally want to disregard the marginalization issue, because it is true enough, just that it's definitely not the only issue there is in the series at all.

I also personally am kind of annoyed by the utter lack of screen time the subversive sort of characters get--Kabuto has largely remained a mystery, despite being a kick-ass male medic, even if he is a villain. Tenten has NO LAST NAME, no real identity or past beyond helping out her teammates and being great with weapons. Shizune died with barely any focus on her, when she seemed to fit a slightly more androgynous role.

Personally, I'd love to see how you'd consider/treat some other characters: for example, the SANNIN are ridiculously inundated with this stuff. A stereotypically lecherous old man who writes pornography, yet whose perversion is dismissed and made humorous just because he's old. Tsunade, who you've already described, who STILL seemed to be some sort of emotional glue for their team. Orochimaru, whose body could be considered extremely feminine, and who was portrayed as an immense evil. I've actually read part of a very well-written fic about Orochimaru being portrayed as transgender.

Also, a glance at Maito Gai and Rock Lee might be interesting, the way their characters juxtapose extreme stereotypical manliness in appearance and actions, with the bizarrely extreme stereotypical femininity of other actions and personalities: their closeness and nurturing, their irrationality, their overexaggerated emotionalness.... They just seem like a definitely interesting set to consider.

But yes. TL;DR, you're doing awesome work. ♥ Keep it up!

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]anat_astarte
2009-04-27 04:05 am UTC (link)
*nodsnodsnods* Fabulous comment! I too would like to see some discussion on all of the characters you've identified above!

I've actually read part of a very well-written fic about Orochimaru being portrayed as transgender.
*bats eyes* I would love to read this Orochimaru fic, can you please link me? :D

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]o0famous_amos0o, 2009-04-27 04:13 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]anat_astarte, 2009-04-27 04:30 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]o0famous_amos0o, 2009-04-27 04:51 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-27 04:16 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]o0famous_amos0o, 2009-04-27 04:19 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]crimsoncourt, 2009-04-27 05:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]o0famous_amos0o, 2009-04-28 02:05 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]crimsoncourt, 2009-04-28 04:03 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]acediance, 2009-04-27 09:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-27 09:31 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-27 09:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]amaiko, 2009-04-28 01:03 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-28 01:36 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]o0famous_amos0o, 2009-04-28 02:06 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]amaiko, 2009-04-28 12:56 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]o0famous_amos0o, 2009-04-28 02:17 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]candika, 2009-04-30 12:03 am UTC (Expand)

[info]rainejoybringer
2009-04-27 04:07 am UTC (link)
A wonderful evaluation of the issues raised in Naruto, although I kinda have to disagree with you calling people out by name there.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sub_textual
2009-04-27 04:08 am UTC (link)
This is actually what I understand to be politically correct blogging ethics -- if you are going to start a debate in the blogosphere, you absolutely need to trackback to the original commenters and credit/cite, etc.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]rainejoybringer, 2009-04-27 05:04 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lizzers22, 2009-04-27 11:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-27 11:58 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]atelierjoh
2009-04-27 04:15 am UTC (link)
I can't really comment on this, but I did read it (and the link at the beginning) and it was interesting to read.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sub_textual
2009-04-27 04:16 am UTC (link)
Ah! I'm glad you read it. You're actually one of the people I was hoping who would read parts of it. Namely, the first two to three parts before the whole discussion regarding the actual canon. ♥

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]atelierjoh, 2009-04-27 04:19 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-27 04:24 am UTC (Expand)

[info]autoschismatic
2009-04-27 04:37 am UTC (link)
Great post! I usually have to go to the feminist blogosphere for this kind of kickass gender issue commentary. We don't do it like this fandom. But we should.

I have to run, so I'll hit one point very quickly:

Pandagon had a post today about (clueless) men going to indie rock shows by performers like Neko Case: http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/if_you_hate_it_so_much_whyd_you_come_out_dudes/


Once there, these clueless Dude Nation types end up yelling at Case to 'show us your tits!' and so on. Amanda argues that these men are made uncomfortable by the very *idea* of a talented female musician AND a woman being given attention and praise for her musicianship.

So, to make themselves feel better, and restore what they feel is the natural order of things, they reduce her to her body parts. Now she is just a breast or an ass, they feel safely superior, and she has been safely dehumanized.

So I wonder if Kishi finds the IDEA of a female warrior, a kunoichi who could be genuinely praised and idolized for her strength as a fighter (you know- just like so many MALE CHARACTERS ARE) subconsciously threatening in the same way.

It's 'not the way things SHOULD BE', but he can't put his finger on why.

So he draws the boob shirts and the short shorts, and Sakura being mostly interested in her hair and weight(!!!!) and a boy who ignores her. All the women are safely made back into body parts. And everyone* can breath a sigh of relief.

*clueless boys and men, a group I feel includes Kishimoto himself.

I'll be back to respond in depth to your post later, but something seems related there.

(Reply to this)


[info]musogato
2009-04-27 04:49 am UTC (link)
Thank you for writing this! I was really appalled by some of those early comments on [info]autoschismatic's essay that just completely swatted away the whole argument, so I'm glad to see such a well-written follow-up to the gender issue. Naruto or not, we can't dismiss discrimination, stereotypes, or oppression just because it's "not a big enough fish to fry." We have to fight/counter/discuss these types of things at all levels.

Anyway, this was a great, thought-provoking read. I think Sakura was developed a bit better post-time skip, especially during the Rescue Gaara arc where she came more into her own, however she hasn't been given that much attention or development since and it feels unlikely that any of the other female characters will even come close. =/ But I still enjoy the series and have a tiny hope that Kishi will eventually remember to shine the light on the female cast again. Anyway, thank you again for taking the time to write this essay. =)

(Reply to this)


[info]zelos22
2009-04-27 05:38 am UTC (link)
forgive me if this has already been said ((since i havent been following this debate very long and am kinda skimming as thats a lot to read)) but ive always thought maybe Kishi just has the same problem i do: i just really suck at writing female characters. for whatever reason, i find them a gazillion times harder to create than male characters. my male characters always seem to take up a majority of the population in my stories, especially the important roles, while my female characters... IDK they always come out to be really dull and cliche, so i have no choice but to put them in the background. ive tried hard to create better strong female characters over the past few years but progress has been minimal at best. my males always overshadow them in quality. always. and im pretty sure its not because i think lesser of women than men.

i wouldnt be surprised if Kishi is still flexing his storytelling muscles since this is his first big publication and hes still young. he still may develop his female characters better with later projects.

*shrug* i may be wrong. i may be right. its just something ive been thinking about for a while now since his female characters remind me of mine 8| im just not a fan of any of them :/

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]autoschismatic
2009-04-28 01:01 am UTC (link)
ive always thought maybe Kishi just has the same problem i do: i just really suck at writing female characters.

Kishimoto's made comments to this effect. But being unable to create or write female characters is saying that you can't relate to half of the world. Which also happens to be the half who's point of view, thoughts and selfhood is erased and removed from public discourse.

And who were are systematically told are not important and not worth listening to or noticing. Or understanding.

In that sense, Kishi's inability seems less innocent. If he feels he can't write women.. becuase he doesn't understand women? He's got a mother. He may not have sisters, but there are plenty of women around him. There are ways he could find out about women's lives and women's reality. The fact that he just says 'I can't do it, sorry' indicates an unwillingness to try.

And more than that, a total disinterest in trying. An attitude that really, it's not worth bothering with.

And ultimately we end up with media full of male heros and villains and POV, so he's part of the problem there. It's not much of an excuse.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]descrime, 2009-04-28 03:07 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]senior_witch, 2009-04-28 07:37 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]acediance, 2009-04-28 04:48 pm UTC (Expand)
Teal deer 1: on feminist and fandom spaces
[info]autoschismatic
2009-04-27 05:41 am UTC (link)
Okay, back to respond properly.

My first comment is that you do not pull any punches here. I'm delighted to see this.

Fandom (in general) has seemed very feminist-unfriendly to me. I'm very used to it as a place that's dominated firstly by fanboys with a 'I am not pro-feminism, it's all a bunch of man-hating whining' attitude. This bunch is accompanied by girls who have a 'all those OTHER girls are stupid and inferior- but I'm different and special' view, which requires them to put down all other girls around them. They seek to prove that they are a shining exception by enforcing oppressive attitudes on all other women.

So needless to say, this is not an atmosphere where you can easily bring up feminist theory.

I'm so used to this that I didn't even examine WHY I thought it would be necessary to pull my own punches so much. There are a lot of apologetics in my post. I felt that if I didn't entertain all opinions, I'd be called a censoring man-hating harpy. I expected the full spectrum of anti-feminist hostility, from being a 'facist against MY free speech' to 'taking all the fun and joy out of MY beloved series.'

So I'm delighted to see that you both feel no need to truck with that noise AND are not getting stomped on by the fandom for it. It seems that Naruto has a decently clueful fandom re: feminist issues. I know this is not the case in others (say, Supernatural. I hear horror stories.) But on the other hand? I see people at F_W upholding the idea that NOPE- sexism isn't funny, or ironic, or cute. It's not being wanky and SRS to hold fast to that. This is encouraging.

However. Most of the direct, unapologetic feminist conversations like this post go on in the feminist blogosphere. That is a place where it is understood that anti-feminists are derailing the discussion. Lazy ignorance of feminism 101 topics isn't tolerated and earns you a one-way ticket to the Finally Feminism 101 FAQ.

I assumed fandom could not be this way. I had to assume that I was speaking to an audience at least partially hostile to feminist concepts. One that would curl up and scream 'YOU JUST HATE MEN' or 'WHO CARES IT'S JUST FOR FUN, GEEZ' if they heard something like 'heteronormative' or 'patriarchy'.

Witness the fail that came out to play in the first few comments.

However? I'm pleased to see that so much win showed up. And also that this post can tell it straight and not get buried under a lot of clueless kneejerk anti-feminism. I may not always love Naruto, but this reflects very well on it's fandom. Awesome to see this.

Edited at 2009-04-27 05:42 am UTC

(Reply to this)

Teal deer 2: 'boys want it this way' Really?
[info]autoschismatic
2009-04-27 06:24 am UTC (link)
This is the root of the whole problem, imo:

More problematically, why is it that boys "don't really want heroines in their manga"?

That boys cannot- or will not- accept a female viewpoint character. Consider that the worst insults boys hurl at one another are all about femininity. The very worst thing to be is a girl. Nothing is lower.

And why do they feel this way? Culture. Socialization. Imo, no one is born 'knowing' that women are inferior or gays are deviant or white is best. We all get taught this. Social conservatives and their evolutionary psychology attempts to 'prove' how 'natural' and 'inborn' it all is don't pass the logic test.

But what enculturates boys to demand women be scrubbed out of their media? Part of that cultural force is the media with it's oppressive portrayal of women itself. So even if the boys 'don't want' to see a shounen heroine, part of the cure should be to show them one anyway. Show them many. Start to dismantle that chicken/egg cycle right there.

The comments about Soul Eater suggest that this may not be true, anyway. Maybe the constant drumbeat of 'boys won't read it' is pushing this more than the opinion of the boys themselves? Maybe if you just plunk an explodey entertaining shounen anime in front of them, most find they don't care as much if the protagonist is a girl.

....and something that female critics should consider because they are not the audience he is writing for because they are female.

Reminds me tangentially of the brouhaha over feminist critiques of Updike, Roth, et al. The 'it's art! It's above social criticism!' excuse isn't too far from the 'it's just shounen manga, STFU' line.

In both cases, there seems to be an idea that women don't have the right to notice or object to sexism in media (literature, art, etc. In fact, the higher the brow is, the more intense the disapproval seems to be.)

Women in positions of power tend to be described as "men in women's bodies" or, like Hilary Clinton, are "nutcrackers," and are constantly criticized for their lack of "womanly" characteristics; but should a woman in a position of power ever show emotion, she is immediately criticized for the presence of "womanly" characteristics.

And blamed for both. HRC was sneered at for showing.. wait for it... determination, ambition and hardnosed policy smarts. Never mind that these are considered assets in a male candidate. Note also that this is coupled with contempt for any feminine traits, as HRC was torn apart for a sniffle. So in essence. YES. THIS.

Which gives rise to:

The larger a woman's breasts, the more feminine she is! The smaller her breasts, the less of a woman she is.

With the nasty unspoken (yet potent) corollary of 'the more feminine she is, the more unintelligent, sexual (ie: dirty and animalistic), morally corrupt and frivilous as a person and being she is.' Plus 'the less feminine she is, the more deviant, disgusting, uppity, wrong and despicable she is, and the more she must be (violently, if necessarily) removed from public space.'

So, it's unsurprising that we 'don't want' girls in our media. Our culture doesn't really like anything about women at all.

And yet, it's so NORMAL that you get the kneejerk response. 'That's just the way it is.. it's for boys. This is what boys like.'

Put that statement together with what these messages are ACTUALLY saying about women, and this becomes stunning. Yeah. Lets not talk about this, it's not important...'

:FFF

In America, our media is hypersexualized and creates these incredibly sexual images of women that are so unrealistic insomuch that they are so ridiculously beautiful and sexual and thin;

Plus- airbrushed and photoshopped, often out of multiple shots and models. The beauty ideal is now literally unreal. The model herself is not good enough and does not fit the standard, or her own airbrushed picture.

Ridiculous. But! 'Boys want it that way.' And 'boys like it that way.' 'This is what boys like.' Gee, sounds kinda familiar.

And it's a BS excuse in both cases, so excellent evisceration of it.







Edited at 2009-04-27 06:25 am UTC

(Reply to this)


[info]crimsoncourt
2009-04-27 06:45 am UTC (link)
This was awesome. I can't say I learned anything I didn't already know or shape any new ideas, but it's always refreshing to see your own thoughts articulated, even if it's by someone else. You've said it better.

I think I'm going to favorite this for point of reference :)

(Reply to this)


[info]helike
2009-04-27 06:49 am UTC (link)
Well said (and I didn't know that the situation of women in Japan is even worse than I had thought -.-;). One more add here about. Mikoto Uchiha - jounin before she married, "degraded" to the house-wife status after the marriage. Or... The only ninja-mom we saw fighting is Kiba's mom, but... as Kiba stated - with her behaviour she scared his father off and he left. Is it to be a suggestion for all women that if they won't behave in the way they should that's what they end up - lone mothers/women?

I myself has always been irritated with lack of female ANBU characters, too. The only one we know is Yugao, but... just count how many times she appeared in the story. I assume that in Kishi's opinion women are not suited for the job? Apparently, the author missed the research in which it's been proven that women might become much more ruthless than man if ever faced with situation that requires for them a constant contact with death and brutality, especially when killing is included.

It might what somebody above suggested - Kishi sucks at writing strong female characters, but why in that case even if in some shounen manga there is some strong female character, she usually ends up being saved by a male character? >.> I'm afraid that's rather the way of thinking, upbringing and the culture influence that shows here, not Kishi's lack of skills. If for the whole your life you're told that women are worse in this way or another, you'll believe it and won't be able to think in any other way. And you won't be able to create a strong female character, because you don't believe they might be strong.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sub_textual
2009-04-29 11:45 pm UTC (link)
This thing about motherhood you brought up, I just wanted to let you know that [info]anat_astarte and [info]acediance are talking about it here and here, and I think it would be great if you have time, to join in on that conversation, since you brought it up first.

Edited at 2009-04-29 11:46 pm UTC

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]autoschismatic
2009-04-27 06:59 am UTC (link)
The reason why sexism and Kishimoto's treatment of gender in Naruto is a legitimate feminist concern is because these images create and construct authorized notions of gender and are part of the body of discourses that indoctrinate their audiences.

Yep. The devil is in the details.

She's utterly useless in every way, slows the team down, does nothing but cry, and pretty much is the very definition of "female archetype." Her identity is also contingent on Sasuke's existence; without Sasuke for her to be obsessed with, Sakura would not have even existed.

A beautifully succinct and surgically precise summation of why I find Sakura's relationship with Sasuke beyond problematic.

But I've been shouted down over it so much that I've backed off it entirely. This nicely exposes the mess to sunlight.

As does this:

Meaning, the male character is what valorizes and constitutes the female. The male is glorified, and the female does all the glorification; in fact, it is her role, it is the reason why she exists. She exists to tell the male how incredible he is, and to be obsessed with him.

Which also nails why I've twitched every time I heard Sakura (Ino, every other female character) dismissed as a 'fangirl.' There's lots to unpack there. They are worshipers, they exist to be worshipers and nothing else, plus it's understood that this is socially beneath contempt.

because it is not just a role, it is the "truth" about women, and because it is the socially accepted "truth" it can't possibly be ever contested. Men are better than women, is the message. Worship us. (Yeah, no thanks.)

Which is why most sexist bullshit is framed as 'the truth', why violent pornography is embedded with the message that it 'tells the truth about how women REALLY are' and why feminist theory is seen as 'PC', and this is 'suppressing free speech.' Suppressing 'the truth.'

Plus- the idea that we 'just know' that 'women are this way.' We 'just know' that Sakura and Ino would fight over Sasuke. Very recently, there was the framing of Michelle Obama and Carla Bruni's meeting as a 'Fashion Catfight Smackdown.' We 'just know' that beautiful women hate eachother and compete viciously. We 'just know' because the tv tells us this is the way it is over and over and over and over...

So it becomes 'the truth.'

In Naruto, the female is weak and stupid, the male is a genius. In fact, there are no female geniuses in Naruto. Kakashi, Itachi, Neji, and Sasuke are all geniuses, but female geniuses do not exist!

THE single most problematic aspect of the entire series, imo. Why is Sakura not considered a genius? There were some excellent comments to my post about how her one asset- her intelligence- is systematically portrayed as useless.

In fact, we are reminded just how emotionally weak she is because she loses her lover and her brother, and as a result leaves Konoha and goes into a life of gambling which she sucks at in every way, shape, and form.

This a million times. I've never found Tsunade's 'legendary sucker' shtick funny or cute. It's not amusingly goofy the way Jiraiya is. It just seems... pathetic. Worse, demeaning.

So that one has bothered me. In fact, I've spent your entire post thinking 'you know, THAT has always bugged me. But I never felt comfortable really bringing feminist theory to bear on it.'

For all the reasons I've detailed above. Because it's not cool to harsh other people's squee with too much feminism. Or because I didn't want to get into a shipwar with someone who felt I was insulting their pairing. And who has the energy for that when all you have is a formless sense of annoyance?

And when you have a little unstated vibe in fandom that 'it's just entertainment', and the culture that says women shouldn't notice too much or comment. And 'it's just the way it is.' And gee, 'if you don't like it, just don't read it. It's not FOR you. It's for boys. Stop being wanky, stop harshing my squee, stop insulting my favorite character, stop making my favorite bishie look bad, just STFU about those female characters, I hate having girls shoved in my face...'

Who wants to be all SRS and unfun?

Anyway, fabulous post.




Edited at 2009-04-27 05:48 pm UTC

(Reply to this)


[info]senior_witch
2009-04-27 08:34 am UTC (link)
I am really impressed about what is happening recently. I think it began with the discussion about Hinata's intervention in chapter 338, and now there is first [info]autoschismatic's essay and now yours, and the posters are not silenced, but instead those who say: "Don't overanalyze!" and "it's shounen, what do you expect!" are silenced - not only by aggression, but also by really good arguments.

One small point that only adds to your point on Sakura: In your characterization of her, you focus on her crush on Sasuke, that takes up all her personality. From Sakura's point of view this is probably correct, this is how she sees herself. Her function in the story however is more complex: She is also Naruto's love interest. She is the object of his rivalry against Sasuke.

Another comment on Sakura-bashers: The girl who recommended "Naruto" to me hated Sakura (now she has lost interest in the series and is a Twilight-fan :rollseyes:). She hated her because she thought her whiny, someone who never did anything useful. She hated her, so to say, because she did not fulfill her ideal of a strong girl, even if she was not able to put this into words - but what's worse is that she was not able to reflect on the fact that Sakura is not a real girl, but a character created by a male author, according to his boyish dreams...


Edited at 2009-04-27 08:39 am UTC

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(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-27 08:34 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]molten_ghost, 2009-04-27 08:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-27 09:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]molten_ghost, 2009-04-27 11:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]senior_witch, 2009-04-28 12:44 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]autoschismatic, 2009-04-28 01:09 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]senior_witch, 2009-04-28 07:21 am UTC (Expand)

[info]sowell
2009-04-27 11:48 am UTC (link)
This is AWESOME. I'm going to link in my journal, if it's all right with you. Your description of gender roles in the Japanese work place reminded me of a story I heard this weekend.

My dad's girlfriend was on a vacation with her family and a few of her (single) girlfriends. She was down in the South Carolina/Georgia area of the US. While she and her friends were out eating breakfast one morning, a man at a nearby table struck up a conversation with them, "half-flirtatious, half-friendly," she said.

Turn out the man was a real estate agent, looking to get them to tour a new condo development in the city. "You and your husbands can come look," he said. When they explained that they were single, financially secure, and could look at condos themselves thank-you-very-much, he immediately withdrew. It was his company's policy not to deal with women without a male significant other present.

This attitude is not limited to Japan. It is not ethno-centric to discuss it because the media was produced in another country. It echoes issues we are still facing in the west.

Except for Tsunade, but do you see any male ninjas idolizing her?

Shikamaru's dad. And Jiraiya. That's about it. And Shikamaru's dad is characterized as being pussy-whipped because of it, sooo...

I agree, so hard, with almost everything - but especially about Tsunade. The Hokage is supposed to be the strongest fighter in the village. We've yet to see her fight. Since her appointment, we've yet to see her fight.

The only point where I'd disagree with you in the whole post, in fact, is that Tsunade is made to seem weaker than Naruto and needs Naruto to rescue her because of her gender. Honestly? Everyone has needed Naruto to rescue them at some point. Everyone is made out to be emotionally weaker than Naruto.

But everything else - yes.

The commenter who implied that this post is a waste of time can go straight to hell, seriously. Posts like these are IMPORTANT, because like you said - how does one affect change amidst a cultural mindset that values social unity so much? The first step is raising awareness. Kishimoto, I'm sure, is not consciously making sexist decisions for his characters. He just doesn't know. He - the women who live in that culture every day - haven't had exposure to anything else.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]centimetre
2009-04-27 12:51 pm UTC (link)
Shikamaru's dad. And Jiraiya. That's about it. And Shikamaru's dad is characterized as being pussy-whipped because of it, sooo...

THIS

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]autoschismatic, 2009-04-28 01:13 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-29 08:33 pm UTC (Expand)
LONG REBUTTLE :D
[info]senyum
2009-04-27 03:44 pm UTC (link)
Whoa, where to start..

For starters, is it really appropriate to indivudally name other users and quote them in a public community, given that (I assume) they were originally all made on a private journal entry? (granted, not an flocked one, but still. As far as I've seen none of the people in question have commented on this, but I know I'd at least feel uncomfortable in that situation, given that you're being so critical about what they had to say)

I'm going to skip most of the Japanese culture bit, because it's right but it's wrong...? like in the next example I'm no althropologist, but:

Men are hired with the understanding of opportunities for management-track promotion; the majority of women are hired to serve tea, file documents, serve tea, make copies for the men, serve tea, answer the phones, serve tea, and wash up the dishes from serving tea.

While this is true in part it's more of a reflection of education level. If we're talking big companies, most of the female admin workers go to two year junior college while the career track guys do a four year degree. There's pleanty of young women these days who do a four year degree and go on to be career track employees...they're not always given as many opportunities for as the men, but that depends a lot on the company. Although the girls always serve the tea haha... So while there's a gender imbalance in positions, it's more reflecting the (culturally induced?) gender imbalance in education rather than...companies deliberately discriminating based on gender


Pre timeskip

...[Sakura] doesn't seem to be able to fight at all, instead, relying on her male teammates to take care of the big bad guys while she freaks out and really has no worth.

Then again, Sakura's the only one from a civilian family (at least we assume...?) Naruto and Sasuke are special cases anyway. Shikamaru/Ino/Chouji are still hiding in bushes up until the Chuunin exams, it's more like they're all just inexperienced.

The fact that this is how Kishimoto chooses to introduce his main female character is certainly worth consideration: we are given the most stereotypical female possible.

But they're all stereotypes...

The male is glorified, and the female does all the glorification; in fact, it is her role, it is the reason why she exists. She exists to tell the male how incredible he is, and to be obsessed with him.

Then after Sakura finishes drooling over Sasuke she turns around and abuses Naruto D:

In fact, there are no female geniuses in Naruto. Kakashi, Itachi, Neji, and Sasuke are all geniuses, but female geniuses do not exist!

..Hanabi? And isn't Sakura supposed to be a medical genius?


Medics

It'd be too easy to argue that because Kabuto is a male who takes on the "girly" role of caregiving and nurturing that is meant for women only, Kabuto is thereby punished and turned into a villain.

Or maybe it's just because he's a backstabbing prick :<

Now, if we consider the fact that Ten Ten is the least "feminine" of all the female ninja in Naruto...Which means that Kishimoto is implying that her body and the shape of it is what makes it impossible for her to be a medic or caregiver because she is not enough of a woman to fill that role. Which means that there is some sort of preconceived idea of what a woman is, and what you must look like to be a "real woman."

..........Really? Ino's curvy but she's not a medic. And neiher is Temari, or Anko, or Kurenai...

Also, poor Tenten. Not women enough to even be a medic :(

Speaking of tits, it's even more problematic that Tsunade has this obsession with her image to the degree that she casts a genjutsu to always look like she's in her 20s when she's actually in her 50s.

And Orochimaru find some hot young thing to body swap with every few years..

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

over character limit *fail*
[info]senyum
2009-04-27 03:45 pm UTC (link)
Objectification/Sexualising

All the other women either wear short shorts or have big breasts for us to focus on. // But these characters are being drawn for a male audience, and therefore, it is perfectly fine to objectify and sexualize them because it satisfies the male reader.

What about the male characters who are sexualized? Or wear skimy getup? Sai/Sasuke/Deidara? immediately come to mind. Not to mention there's been fanservice pretty clearly directed towards female readers (slash no jutsu, those narusasu pendants, anything related to Kizuna lol)

Also, while we're on this subject, yaoi fans do the same thing to men all the time... Objectification isn't inherently a feminist issue, just as being sexy isn't inherently demeaning. It's just the imbalance which can get irritating..

Japanese women and characters in Japanese anime self-objectify... but ..."because it is socially accepted in Japan, then we shouldn't contest it when we are considering it in America."

And American mass media doesn't objectify women...?

If anything, the American release of Naruto is worse on this issue, didn't the American editors let sexy no jutsu get through a few times but black out the Sasuke/Sai one? >>;


Ahhh and I'm done now. *read every word ;|*

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: over character limit *fail* - [info]premium_shaday, 2009-04-27 06:01 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: over character limit *fail* - [info]senyum, 2009-04-27 06:21 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: LONG REBUTTLE :D - [info]autoschismatic, 2009-04-27 04:28 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: LONG REBUTTLE :D - [info]senyum, 2009-04-27 04:45 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: LONG REBUTTLE :D - [info]premium_shaday, 2009-04-27 05:56 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: LONG REBUTTLE :D - [info]senyum, 2009-04-27 06:11 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: LONG REBUTTLE :D - [info]premium_shaday, 2009-04-28 05:19 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: LONG REBUTTLE :D - [info]premium_shaday, 2009-04-28 05:56 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: LONG REBUTTLE :D - [info]molten_ghost, 2009-04-27 06:39 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: LONG REBUTTLE :D - [info]sowell, 2009-04-27 10:40 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: LONG REBUTTLE :D - [info]flibbergibbet, 2009-04-28 01:44 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]jade_wynds
2009-04-27 04:07 pm UTC (link)
So by and in large I agree with you, especially about the influence of Japanese gender roles on the portrayal of women in shounen manga in general.

HOWEVER, I believe that Kishi is working on it. He's not there by a long shot, but he's trying and I do think that should count for something. Let's go in order. First, about Sakura. You're right, she absolutely does start out as a validation for Sasuke and an overly-submissive stereotypical "woman." But post-timeskip she's doing her own thing. And no, her growth is not as acknowledged as Naruto's (partly because he's the main character, and partly because she's a woman), but it's there and noticed by other characters in the universe (namely Kakashi during the bell-test and later by Naruto when she is healing Kankuro). The first steps are there, even if they don't take us where we would like to be equality-wise.

Same thing with Ten Ten. She tells Neji point-blank that being a girl doesn't make you automatically weaker. She is also drawn as a compact person (which I think is logical for her chosen profession and fighting style), but with definite breasts and hips as well as a rather effeminate face. So I don't think that Kishi is de-girling her completely (although he is a bit), but her character is a bit of a tom-boy and she is sidelined, so you do have a bit of a point, although I don't think it's as extreme as you made it out to be. Again, there's movement in the direction of gender-equality, even if we don't actually get there.

About Tsunade having to be saved by Naruto, and the village chilling, waiting for him to come back and deal with Pain...that might be equal parts misogyny and the fact that Naruto is the main character. I don't think that you can write it off to one or the other.

And finally, the clothing. Yes, there's a little bit of fan service. But the clothing is also practical. It allows for free movement and overheating during exercise. And the mesh shirts seem to be more of a unisex kind of deal. Yes, Anko and Hinata wear them (under jackets), but so does Shikamaru. I don't think that the clothing is specifically chauvinistically chosen.

So tl;dr: yes there's a problem, and yes we should talk about it. But Kishi is trying to right it (even if he isn't completely successful, he's trying to uproot everything he was brought up with so I'm guessing that it's a rather large effort on his part, even if it doesn't seem like it to us), and that should be acknowledged too.

Also, OT, but I disagree with your comments about glorification of sexual purity in Tess of the d'Urbervilles and racism in Huckleberry Finn (in fact, I think that the authors were trying to point out the flaws in commonly held perceptions on the topics). But that's for another time :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]jaquiel
2009-04-27 05:33 pm UTC (link)


Actually, I don't really know how much you, sub_textual or any of the other people around interact with the more mainstream fans, but I am a regular on the narutofan.com forums, and I have to say that if Kishi is trying, his fanbase is not listening. I mean, this is how the females of Naruto are generally thought of by the average NF user (12-20 year old males):

Sakura - Bitch who abuses Naruto, who is nice to her, and likes Sasuke, who treats her like crap. Deserves to be alone for the rest of her life.
Ino - Dumb whore, generally thought of as queen of the obvious due to a single like taken out of context from the Hidan/Kakuzu arc ("they're using their immortality to their advantage"), even more useless than Sakura.
Tsunade - Most useless of all Hokages, a percentage of the forum has actually rebelled against Kishi's own intentions and decided that Danzou would be a much better Hokage than Tsunade.
TenTen - Ironically, the one woman who is only good for fighting is considered to be the weakest of her generation by far. Has basically become a joke around the forums - if somebody does something totally pathetic, he/she is usually referred to as "Tenten tier."
Hinata - Probably the female character who is the least hated, those who like her usually point out her qualities as a good wife and her great body. She is the ideal woman for Naruto - submissive, cute, and quiet. She may be a bit stupid, but she hides it by keeping her damn mouth shut.
Karin - Has a nice ass and probably a bunch of STDs. Discussion about her tends to revolve around whether she is extremely hot or extremely ugly. That's about it.
Konan - Nagato's wife, needs to take off that Akatsuki cloak and get back in the kitchen. Sucks as a fighter. Hot.

Now, admittedly a lot of these boys will go on to complain that Kishimoto lacks badass females. But I think my point is more that his attempts to make females relevant are half-hearted and aren't really working for his fans.

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(no subject) - [info]jaquiel, 2009-04-27 05:45 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-27 07:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jaquiel, 2009-04-27 08:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-27 08:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jaquiel, 2009-04-27 09:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-27 10:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jaquiel, 2009-04-27 11:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jade_wynds, 2009-04-28 01:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jade_wynds, 2009-04-28 01:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jade_wynds, 2009-04-27 08:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]anat_astarte, 2009-04-28 03:47 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]autoschismatic, 2009-04-28 01:17 am UTC (Expand)

[info]dusk
2009-04-27 05:26 pm UTC (link)
Oh, god, thank you so much for this. When reading that other post, I was really disturbed by the fact that people just seemed to think it was okay that Naruto is full of sexist crap just because it's a shonen manga, that we should just sit down and shut up since it's ~tailored~ towards boys. I do have to run to class now, but I'll make some more thorough comments when I get back and have the chance to read this properly. :)

(Reply to this)

And one last teal deer.
[info]autoschismatic
2009-04-27 05:37 pm UTC (link)
I think I've parked an entire herd of teal deer in this thread. But I forgot to touch upon this part:

While [info]autoschismatic argues that women are marginalized in Naruto, I do not believe so much that the issue is their marginalization, but their oppression, objectification, and sexualization.

I believe it's a both/and thing. Not just marginalization, but alllll of the above. Calling out the objectification/sexualization (and I consider these all nasty little leaves on the poison tree of oppression anyway, oppression is oppression is oppression) feels like indicting the entire culture.

Plus it's going to make a lot of people really mad at you.

The sheer amount of feminist theory you have to unpack to even get at that stuff alone. It's exhausting. Marginalization feels like something you can actually question without tripping everyone's cultural enforcement buttons, you know?

But I agree. Why does Tsunade have to be a cosmetic 20 year old with big boobs? Why does Sakura have to wear the short shorts? Why does Laura Croft have to, for that matter? Because the male audience says 'I'm not interested in this female protagonist unless she's sexy."

'Sexy' being a codeword for 'compliant with the beauty standard of the big P' and 'dressed in a way we associate with both desire and moral decrepitude', which is why it's almost impossible to describe how Croft dresses wihout sounding like I'm slut-shaming her. Those sentiments are buried in the language itself.

Add a dash of 'women have no intelligence, personality, lives, dreams or individuality worth noting, so all they're good for is being 'sexy.'" And then we see why these characters have to be objectified to be 'interesting' to a male audience.

Or maybe I'm being too harsh? Simply stating the truth of the matter makes me feel like I'll be called, let's see...

1)A manhater.
2)Just angry at the entire world for no reason
3)A professional victim
4)A big meanie saying nasty things about someone's favorite shiny entertainment.

And then there's the tokens, Chiyo, Tenten, others. It's quite brave of you to even wade into that issue in your post. I don't have the energy to get into it half the time.

But yeah, these characters are sexualized and objectified. Most of those other female characters in media everywhere are sexualized and objectified. The woman reading the news on CNN is sexualized and objectified. When I walk down the street in grungy sweats post-gym and some guy starts yelling 'HEY BITCH SUCK MY COCK' or 'I WANNA SEE YOUR TITS YOU WHORE' I'm... yup. The fact that any woman who doesn't obey the beauty standard is punished socially, financially and professionally is... yoooou've got it. Sexualization and objectification. You're a girl? You've been treated this way your entire life. Feel like seeing that much ugliness right now or do you want some comforting rationalizations to help you survive the day instead? The culture is awash in it.

So absolutely it's there and absolutely it's wrong. But it feels waaaaaaaaaay too big to even get into. Too many ready talking points about how it really doesn't matter or this character (allegedly) isn't treated that way, or dwelling on it is just wading in victimhood or oppression is just a state of mind and women oppress themselves and tee hee, why are you such a weak woman and not strong and happy with the way things are like me? Blah blah blah. It feels like it's not worth it.

I've spent all these comments talking more about the act of raising feminist concerns in a fandom space than the direct substance of your post. I hope that's not considered totally off-topic. Because to me? It is the topic. The forces that say don't notice this, don't criticize this directly support the oppressive messages in the text itself.

(Reply to this)

Right On!
[info]jarredgoddess
2009-04-27 05:45 pm UTC (link)
I have nothing intelligent to add to this conversation at this point. I'm just so glad someone's saying what I've been saying about manga in general forever in such a smart and informed way.

(Reply to this)


[info]molten_ghost
2009-04-27 06:12 pm UTC (link)
While I agree overall with the message you're trying to communicate, I disagree quite strongly with some of the examples of sexism in Kishimoto's writing you chose to focus on. I think you're being particularly unfair to Sakura, as your statements about her are borderline character-bashing.

all [Sakura] cares about is Sasuke, defines herself by her love for Sasuke, and essentially has no identity outside of her obsession with Sasuke. Her entire characterization is based on her romantic interest in Sasuke and she virtually has no identity whatsoever to call her own except for the closeted "Inner Sakura" ...Her identity is also contingent on Sasuke's existence; without Sasuke for her to be obsessed with, Sakura would not have even existed. Sasuke is the means by which she is constituted, and by which she is defined. Meaning, the male character is what valorizes and constitutes the female.

...Except for the fact that Sakura's infatuation with Sasuke and by extension, her need to validate her existence through the acknowledgment of the male gender in general, is treated as a character flaw that she gradually overcomes over the course of the series. Kishimoto once said in an early interview that he considered Sakura's obsession to be purely selfish and that she was originally (along with Rock Lee) intended to symbolize human weakness. Sakura's existence does not, in fact, serve to glorify Sasuke; rather, it does the exact opposite: I would argue that Sakura and Sasuke's interactions could be accurately characterized as Sakura being continually subjected to Sasuke failing to live up to her (albeit unrealistic, perhaps) expectations and subsequently, her learning to form a legitimate emotional bond with him via perceiving Sasuke as a fallible human being rather than an overly romanticized ideal. For example: Sakura provides, possibly echoing the audience's sentiments, some commentary on Sasuke's rapidly increasing skill level right before his confrontation with Rock Lee, in which he is promptly, thoroughly, and humiliatingly defeated and forced to admit his own personal failings (i.e., relying on his heritage rather than hard work). She surpasses him at the tree-climbing exercise, which leaves him very disappointed in--and this is important--HIMSELF, not her; she actually calls him a coward in the Forest of Death; she thanks him for rescuing her from Gaara only to be informed that Naruto saved them both; she's forced to protect him and Naruto after the curse seal leaves him paralyzed, the list goes on. Furthermore, she initially treats Naruto with nothing but (undeserved) contempt and openly ridicules him, even though Naruto is the character the audience is encouraged to identify with.

Also, Sasuke actively criticizes Sakura for fawning on him at the expense of her ninja training. When she offers to practice with him--a thinly disguised gambit to pester him for a date--he immediately cites the hypocrisy of her belittling Naruto's abilities when her own skills were, in fact, even less developed and tells her, point blank, to train. He gives her a very disapproving glare when she suggests that they withdraw from Kakashi's bell tell. He later admits that her genjutsu and her situation analysis abilities were better than his own. I think of Sasuke as more of a vehicle for Sakura's character development, her crucible, if you will.

Also, I would very strongly disagree that Sakura is a shallow female love interest for Sasuke. Think about her relationship with Ino: she initiated a rivalry with Ino Sasuke as the prize because she didn't want to live in Ino's shadow forever. You can easily trace her desire to associate with Sasuke as well as her tendency to take her frustrations out on Naruto back to her insecurities and self-confidence issues. Her being initially unsuited for the shinobi lifestyle is also explored when Sasuke tells her that she doesn't understand the hardship Sasuke and Naruto have endured due to having a relatively normal childhood. Inner!Sakura also has a special significance as the voice of Sakura's true thoughts and feelings; notice that she appears less frequently as Sakura becomes more comfortable with speaking her mind, indicating that she and Sakura have merged.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]senyum
2009-04-27 06:53 pm UTC (link)
While I agree overall with the message you're trying to communicate, I disagree quite strongly with some of the examples of sexism in Kishimoto's writing you chose to focus on.

This is essentially what I was trying to say, only much more eloquent 8D


I like your analysis on Sakura, it's pretty thought provoking. The op mentioned Tsunade being emotionally 'weak' amonst her team, but in a way Sakura balances that out post timeskip, being the only one from her team not going through some huge emotional crisis. She might have been a little shaken after that first encounter with Sasuke, but Naruto's the one who not only failed to defend himself, but was on the ground crying afterwards... ...at least I think that was canon ;| And let's not even get started on Sasuke..

Or Sakura during that Pein battle >___>;

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]molten_ghost, 2009-04-27 07:26 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]senyum, 2009-04-27 07:51 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]fm_gatekeeper, 2009-04-27 07:54 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-27 08:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]molten_ghost, 2009-04-27 08:47 pm UTC (Expand)
This isn't, and never was, about Sakura, but about Kishimoto's portrayal of her. - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-27 09:18 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: This isn't, and never was, about Sakura, but about Kishimoto's portrayal of her. - [info]molten_ghost, 2009-04-27 10:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]molten_ghost, 2009-04-28 03:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-28 03:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]molten_ghost, 2009-04-28 04:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-28 04:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-28 03:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]anat_astarte, 2009-04-28 03:58 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]senior_witch, 2009-04-28 08:42 am UTC (Expand)

[info]premium_shaday
2009-04-27 06:20 pm UTC (link)
When I was doing business with Japan, just about every single man I met were shocked to discover that I was the Chief Operations Officer of a company with offices in Los Angeles, New York, and Singapore. I worked in entertainment in Japan, and it was pretty common to go to parties and socialize; I used these parties as places where I would be able to do some networking. Imagine my surprise, as a feminist, when I walked into a party and discovered the amount of women there who were pretty much allowing themselves to be treated as sexual playtoys for the men, simply because they are women and that is their role. Imagine more, a Japanese man's surprise, when he attempted to treat me the way all the other Japanese women allow themselves to be treated, only for me to tell him no, not interested. Imagine, also, when I was at a particular club in Shibuya, and a Japanese man refused to stop trying to touch me despite being told rather firmly to not do that, because he believed he had the right and the privilege and was entitled to my body because I am female and he is male, and as a Japanese male, he should be allowed to do with me what he wants. (Imagine his shock when I got all up in his face and raised a fist and screamed that if he touched me one more time, I would fuck him up, motherfucker.)

Imagine, also, the surprise of when a group of men started talking about how women were naturally unintelligent, and I raised my voice and told them to kindly shut the fuck up, seeing as I, too, was a business owner, and my business was just as successful as theirs, while the Japanese girl next to me giggled and agreed at just how dumb all women are, and oh my god, how can we possibly have any kind of intelligence? She also mentioned that her number one most important endeavor was to find a boyfriend who can "take care of her" because that's what you're supposed to do as a Japanese woman: find a nice man to take care of you, because, obviously women can't take care of themselves.


THIS. OH SHIT I'D GO NUTS.
ESPECIALLY WITH THAT GUY TOUCHING YOU. I PUNCHED A GUY FOR TOUCHING ME WHEN I TOLD HIM NOT TO ONCE, AND HE WAS GAY. I WOULD PROBABLY FLIP AN EPIC SHIT IF SOME GUY WAS GOING FOR THE GOODS. You go girl. I was rooting for you and then felt dumb because that happened to you a while ago. (Whatever. I'm still proud of you. Yeah, girl! Empowered women- REPRESENT!)

That whole blurb is the antithesis of me, what I believe, and how I behave. I have issues with girls who act and talk like that because if we are who we pretend to be, then they are weak, stupid, and incapable of any independence that matters. On campus, I have this issue with up-talkers. They make every sentence? Sound like a question? And they don't sound like they know what they're talking about at all? It's like they're aggressively inarticulate?
I hate it.
Thank you for living down to society's expectations of you, party blond, I have to go be articulate with people who aren't afraid to recognize their own intelligence.

And the girl who needs a boyfriend to 'take care of her?' I don't understand what would make her incapable, unless she was disabled or retarded. Maybe my expectations of her are high, but I have a sneaking suspicion that Japans expectations of her are just really really low.

BLAH BLAH BLAH [/end rant]

I really liked this and agreed with most of your major points. :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]premium_shaday
2009-04-28 07:01 pm UTC (link)
I wish I could edit this without deleting it. D: I honestly don't know what I'm talking about in some places. I'm so sick, guys! I'm pretty sure the girls I'm referring to are my suitemates. There is so much personal beef that doesn't belong on this thread.

SORRY GUYS. ):

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]premium_shaday, 2009-04-28 07:03 pm UTC (Expand)
Teal deer part 1
[info]acediance
2009-04-27 08:48 pm UTC (link)
Thank you. You said everything that needs to be said, especially this:

The reason why sexism and Kishimoto's treatment of gender in Naruto is a legitimate feminist concern is because these images create and construct authorized notions of gender and are part of the body of discourses that indoctrinate their audiences.

YES. The thing that made me so angry about some of the first few fail!comments on [info]autoschismatic's post was the fact that people were seeing the sexism, but dismissing it. And to me, that's far worse than the people who say, "[Insert series here] isn't sexist at all and you're crazy for thinking it is". At least in that case, people are often legitimately clueless (or just being generally trollish). But on [info]autoschismatic's post, everyone could see the glaring problems, but some people were too afraid to speak out about those problems. One person even said something along the lines of, "Oh, I wish Kishi would do this and that with his female characters... but... but... it's a shonen manga and I guess I shouldn't dream about it being any better." And that's just such a sad and helpless attitude. Feminism would have gotten nowhere if women all along had shrugged, "Well, of course there's sexism at my job, but that's to be expected since it's a man's thing. Oh well - if I don't want to deal with sexism, I'll get back in the kitchen." And that's technically what a lot of people were saying in that entry regarding shonen manga - that, "Oh well, it's a boy's thing, and boys will be boys and it's not about me as a woman." There has to be an underlying measure of self-hate when you say those kinds of things as a woman. Even if we can't do better than what we have now, at least we can dream better.

To me, that's like critiquing a very racist book by saying, "Well, it's racist, but its target audience is the KKK, so I guess it's okay that it's racist." Nuh-uh. It may be designed for the KKK, but it's still racist, and literature does not exist in a void simply because it is geared towards a particular audience.

And if young males really don't want to see heroines in their manga, then we should be asking why, and we should be challenging that. Young boys are not born not wanting to see women succeed; they are told that women cannot succeed, and that the success of a woman is a threat to their masculinity. That's a problem, and it's not something that can be ignored. It's certainly not an excuse for why sexism exists in various media.

Many people have argued that Tsunade is badass because she's a "real woman," has more strength than anyone on earth, and she is a hardcore medic kunoichi. In case people forgot, Tsunade also requires liberation from her fear of blood and a PTSD trigger that immediately reduces her to tears and incapacitates her ability to fight, and her source of liberation is a little boy.

YES. I think someone pointed out upthread that, to be fair, a lot of characters require liberation from Naruto at some point or another. And while that's certainly true, most of these characters are either Naruto's age, or living a somewhat immature lifestyle (Zabuza, for instance, needed Naruto to yell at him before realizing his true feelings for Haku). Tsunade is better than that as a Legendary Sannin, and yet her role in that battle was simply to flip out so that Naruto would look cooler. (Originally, I watched the Naruto anime before reading the manga, and this was the one instance where I wanted to throw something at my TV, because I was so pissed at Kishi for turning this badass, awesome female fighter into a pile of mush in order to make a 12-year-old with a penis look cool.) And then there was a sequel to this fail in the recent chapters when Kishi refrained from letting Tsunade get much screentime with Pain so that Naruto could show up and tell her to go make some tea!

(Reply to this)

Teal deer part 2
[info]acediance
2009-04-27 08:51 pm UTC (link)
The fact that this is how Kishimoto chooses to introduce his main female character is certainly worth consideration: we are given the most stereotypical female possible. She's utterly useless in every way, slows the team down, does nothing but cry, and pretty much is the very definition of "female archetype." Her identity is also contingent on Sasuke's existence; without Sasuke for her to be obsessed with, Sakura would not have even existed.

You make some interesting points about Sakura, and I do think it's true: Sakura's existence was incredibly dependent upon Sasuke's. However, I do feel the need to point out that Kishi probably intended for Sakura to appear annoying and stereotypical at first glance. In the beginning, Kishi wrote Sakura as an annoying fangirl, Sasuke as an arrogant prick, and Naruto as a loud idiot (and then there was Kakashi, who didn't seem too enthusiastic about any of them). So none of them were in a particularly great place, and I do believe Kishi intended to write Team 7 as purposely unlikeable and immature (and stereotypical) at the very beginning so that he'd have a lot of character development to work through. And I agree with what has been pointed out upthread: Sakura's crushy love for Sasuke was actually written to be a character flaw, rather than an admirable trait.

My bigger problem with Sakura (especially in Part 1) is that we're told all these great things about her - that she is, for instance, incredibly book-smart and intelligent - but in application, we rarely see her intelligence pan out. For instance, during the Chuunin Exam, Sakura answers all the questions on the written exam correctly. Then, when Team 7 goes into the Forest of Death, Sasuke is the character who comes up with all the intricate plans and comes across as having the best intuition (i.e. noticing when Naruto was not really Naruto, and coming up with that complicated password to test whether Naruto was the real one or not). If Sakura is indeed the character with the best intelligence, why the hell is she not doing all the calculating? Why is she reduced to standing by so Sasuke can be better developed? We don't see her brilliance play out in her battle against Ino, either; in fact, it was the sheer guts of Inner Sakura (rather than intelligence) that forced Ino's jutsu out of Sakura, and even that wasn't enough to help her win. And then we hear that she's a genjutsu type, but then she's easily overtaken by Sasuke's genjutsu as Sasuke leaves Konoha. And I was so frustrated with watching Sakura be treated this way because I knew she was capable of so much more than Kishi gave her credit for. (Granted, Kishi did develop her a hell of a lot more in Part 2, but this was still frustrating for the longest time). So Kishi has this terrible tendency to tell us rather than show us what his female characters can do.

And I feel that's one form of oppression - the idea that intellectually, women are inferior to men. They can be smart, but they can't be too smart. There are no female geniuses in Naruto, as you said. And as I pointed out here, we don't see female characters engaging in major ideological discussions about anything (with the exception of Chiyo). They aren't left out of battles; they are left out of conversations. Sakura (and/or Tsunade) could be brought into this current conversation about how to improve the shinobi world. Hinata could be brought into a conversation about the Hyuuga Clan and how to challenge or change its practices. And so on and so forth. But as it is, Kishi doesn't write most of his female characters as being, well, idea-centric about anything, really.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

Re: Teal deer part 2
[info]hieronymousb
2009-04-27 09:18 pm UTC (link)
I am actually inclined to believe that the fact that Chiyo is routinely omitted from people's minds and discussions of female characters -- even such feminist discussions are this one -- shows a subtle and problematic bias on our ends (our being a general "our", though I am not excluding myself from having been problematic about this). She is a progressive character: the kind we say we want. Yet we (again, general "we") exclude her from discussions, mostly. Why is that? Is that because she's old and we're exhibiting our own internalized ageism? She doesn't get lumped in with the other women because she's too different? Well, fandom's bad, on that one.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Teal deer part 2 - [info]jaquiel, 2009-04-27 09:59 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Teal deer part 2 - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-27 10:00 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Teal deer part 2 - [info]jaquiel, 2009-04-27 10:13 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Teal deer part 2 - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-27 10:37 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Teal deer part 2 - [info]jaquiel, 2009-04-27 10:44 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Teal deer part 2 - [info]dustbunny105, 2009-04-28 07:49 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Teal deer part 2 - [info]amaiko, 2009-04-29 02:54 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Teal deer part 2 - [info]acediance, 2009-04-27 10:35 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Teal deer part 2 - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-04-27 10:42 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Teal deer part 2 - [info]acediance, 2009-04-27 11:34 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Teal deer part 2 - [info]sub_textual, 2009-04-29 09:44 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Teal deer part 2 - [info]senior_witch, 2009-04-29 10:05 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Teal deer part 2 - [info]anat_astarte, 2009-04-30 05:03 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Teal deer part 2 - [info]jaquiel, 2009-04-30 04:54 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Teal deer part 2 - [info]anat_astarte, 2009-05-01 02:29 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Teal deer part 2 - [info]forever77, 2009-05-31 08:53 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Teal deer part 2 - [info]hieronymousb, 2009-05-31 09:14 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Teal deer part 2 - [info]molten_ghost, 2009-04-27 11:53 pm UTC (Expand)

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